The Fluidity of the Fashion System with Keanan Duffty

‍Emily Lane 00:09 

Welcome to Clothing Coulture, a fashion industry podcast at the intersection of technology and innovation. I'm Emily lane. 

Bret Schnitker 00:17 

I'm Bret Schnitker. We speak with experts and disruptors who are moving the industry forward 

Emily Lane 00:21 

and discuss solutions to real industry challenges. 

Bret Schnitker 00:24 

Clothing culture is brought to you by Stars Design Group, a global design and production house with more than 30 years of experience. 

Emily Lane 00:35 

Welcome back to another episode of clothing culture. Once again, we find ourselves in the glorious penthouse 45 with sweeping views in midtown Manhattan. It's great to be back, isn't it? Brett? 

Bret Schnitker 00:48 

It is great to be back. 

Emily Lane 00:50 

Well, today I am really excited about our conversation, we're going to dive into fashion industry fluidity with our guest, Keanan Duffty, who is really kind of his rocker Meets Fashion designer. I'm really thrilled to have you here, having collaborated with the Sex Pistols. David Bowie, author, musician, award winning designer and director of fashion programs at Parsons School of Design. So well accomplished. Welcome to the podcast. Keanan. 

Keanan Duffty 01:20 

Thank you so much for having me on. I love your rock'n'roll jacket. 

Bret Schnitker 01:24 

She wore it for you. 

Keanan Duffty 01:25 

Thank you. I appreciate this great 

Emily Lane 01:27 

goddess sport a little English. Here so well. Today we're talking about fluidity within the fashion industry. This really isn't limited to the fluidity when it comes to gender and sexuality. It does come into play a little bit, but it really is about fluidity in the industry as a whole. This came up during our conversation before this podcast, and really was inspired as you were telling us about your recent experience the cab art and fashion days you want to tell us a little bit about that? 

Keanan Duffty 01:58 

Yeah, sure. So first of all, thank you so much for having me on. It's a real pleasure to be here with you. And yeah, I was recently invited to Kyiv, which I learned is correctly pronounce Kyiv. 

Emily Lane 02:10 

Thank you for that. 

Bret Schnitker 02:12 

Sorry, Kyiv, 

Keanan Duffty 02:13 

In Ukraine and to a festival called Kyiv Art and Fashion Days that was organized by Sofia Tchkonia, who is sort of major player in that region. She's the founder of Tbilisi Fashion Week in Georgia. And she wanted to create an event that mixed art, fashion, design photography, and the emerging underground culture in in Ukraine. And so she invited myself along with a number of other international editors to kind of come and be part of the event and witness it meet the designers there. And to see the sort of new creative system that is happening. And it was really an eye opener for me, actually, you know, I obviously had probably a stereotypical idea of what I would encounter in Kyiv, and it was a completely different experience. Many young designers that are really well established with fantastic collections that are doing work for performance, like Cardi B and Lady Gaga, they're showing in Paris, they're, you know, really accomplished as anyone else on the world stage. And it really made me think about the diversity that's really happened within fashion weeks around the world, traditionally, we think of Paris, Milan, New York, London. But there are so many Fashion Weeks happening around the world, where the focus is on sort of local talents, that maybe doesn't yet have international exposure. And that's probably a good thing, because they're not under that spotlight yet. You know, so they're being able to just stay and develop social media isn't quite exposing them in a major way just yet. So they can kind of get their groove, you know, they've this sort of establishing their handwriting as designers, they're finding out what their consumer wants from them. They're doing it in a way that is, is not pressured to the greater degree that we are, let's say, in New York City, or in in Paris or London, because of the price of real estate fundamentally. So you know, they have these great ateliers. They're able to do fantastic shows, possibly without the kind of overhead that they would experience if they were in New York. And, you know, it was it for me it was I saw designers like Gudu, who's a very well established designer, locally polite studio, who created a fantastic performance with this sort of female music act called Dakh Daughters, who performed with accordions and violin hands mine kind of like I mean, I think experiential. It's, well this is my description. It's kind of like like, gypsy Eastern European vibe. But but very modern in a way that Amy Winehouse, Amy Winehouse took kind of hip hop lyrics and mash them together with a sort of Traditional R&B sound. And so these women are kind of taking very contemporary ideas and lyrics and mashing them together with a sort of local folk sound, if it were. And then also designers like Frolov, that are doing brilliant, kind of burlesque inspired apparel that the handwork is so phenomenal. And they all of the designers are utilizing local craftspeople in a way that probably can't be done in the rest of the world anymore, because those crafts have kind of faded away. So they're actually monopolizing local talents, and, and bringing that to the world. And that's what I again, I thought was fantastic, really amazing thing to witness, 

Bret Schnitker 05:39 

As we're traveling, we're seeing similar things we're seeing these places you wouldn't typically imagine, would have a notable impact on fashion, you know, we, you know, fashion has always had the conversation about being inclusive, right, yeah. And open arms. But kind of the nature of how it distills down is always into these big cities and the visibility for, you know, the diverse group of talent and creativity globally, rarely makes it to those areas. And, you know, as we were talking, I think it was last week or whatever I you know, I started really doing a lot of, you know, research on these fashion weeks, and I'm shocked where they are, I mean, there's over 140 Fashion Weeks around the world, you know, American style is I think 42 You know, being consumer nation, I guess, the way we are, we still are at the top of the pack with a number of fashion weeks, but you've got Fashion Week, Tanzania, you've got you know, these far flung places. And when you're looking at the collections, you're amazed and astounded by the talent, you shouldn't be, like you said, you have these pre built conceptions like, hey, unless you're in Paris, New York, London, you know, Milan, you know, all these centers that we expect to have that kind of talent, you have a preconceived notion. But I am excited about the fact that as we have said, in previous podcasts, about the rise of the boutique brands that are occurring in the US, this whole kind of farm to table meets fashion, you know, building handicrafts local to different countries, celebrating, you know, smaller, more niche designers, I think I should world's better off for it, because this is art, you know, fashion is art, they're artists, and the ability to see more beauty and more art from more places in the world, you know, I think enrich our experience and inform fashion as a community. 

Keanan Duffty 06:49 

Yeah, it's true. And there's also an infrastructure in certainly in in Kyiv, there is a major department store called Tsum, which we would spell it T S U M. That's not the spelling in that region. But that's a department store that was established in 1939 was the the sort of first major retail space in Kyiv, and has undergone this recent trap, sort of rebirth, transformation and rebirth, where the entire interior of the store was removed and rebuilds the exterior, the sort of Soviet post Soviet exterior remains. And this is a store that has all of the major international fashion brands, but also all of the local domestic Ukrainian brands, too. So that's supporting all of that local talent. And they're doing that in a way that I think is a good signal to other international departments to us to really get behind the kind of local creators and to support that, because that's what's creating this, this return to smaller, better, sort of more emotional fashion that really connects with the consumer, that the consumer is going to own and keep and pass on to other generations, rather than buy it, use it for a couple of weeks and dispose of it. Right. So you know, I think it's, it's a good signpost for the rest of us 

Bret Schnitker 07:51 

Agreed. And you see what's going on in the world today, where the established fashion brands out there, you know, they're trying to figure out how to attract Gen Z, these designers, these artists, if you will, the last thing they're thinking about really, honestly, is the economics of it. This is an expression. Yeah. And you know, if the economics follow, that's great. We, you know, we've had a number of conversations with some amazingly talented designers. And I think the common thread across it, which is so interesting to me, is in some ways, I'm maybe it's not the right term, but you sense it a little lack of confidence in their own ability to create, you're looking at these things, and you're just amazed. And there's this kind of, they're intimidated a little bit to step onto the world stage. And I feel like, you know, as members of this community, we need to find ways to make them feel more comfortable. Yeah, to celebrate that because, you know, while I love the, you know, the kitchen, or whatever of them not feeling so comfortable. They're challenged by their own creativity, like many artists are, you're your own worst critic, right? You know, that can't be good. But you look at these things and you're done. Like amazed that I think providing mentorship opportunities for them to come in and say, let me just tell you about my journey. And what I'm creating, I think gives them this comfortable platform where they can where we can see some amazing things. 

Keanan Duffty 10:15 

And they certainly support their the Kyiv Art and Fashion Days is supported by Ukrainian Vogue, that's the major media partner. And, but also, Czech Vogue was there, too, we have Mickey Boardman from Paper Magazine from New York, we had representatives from for Forbes publications myself. So there was really a nice, small, but nice international community of communicators. And you know, it's kind of our role to then go and tell the story to the world, you know, and actually, to say, to sort of younger people that are in Ukraine, there is a world out there that's actually interested in what you're doing. And we're kind of looking at it, you know, so don't feel like you're operating purely in a vacuum, and only to your domestic community. Because, for example, there's talk of keeping the New Berlin so you know, I've seen a few sort of media publications saying, it's really happening city and that seems to be true. There's, there are amazing restaurants, world class restaurants, the very famous technic club in Berlin called Berghain. It's just opened in Kyiv. So there's a sort of, you know, food culture, there's a nightclub culture. There's a creative community, it's all there. And it feels like quite a young city. You know, it feels like there are a lot of great little coffee shops and places to me and small galleries showing local designers and artists. And so it's a it's a great moment, I think, and I know that's replicated in in Georgia, too. in Tbilisi, I know that there's a, probably a more advanced scene in Tbilisi, 

Bret Schnitker 11:48 

Outside of the, you know, the larger publications that you mentioned, and I think they've all done a really good job of recognizing some of these, you know, up and coming and unique, diverse designers. You know, do you feel that it's still as you've as you visited Kyiv? And do you feel it, it's still geographic. Do you feel like the excitement that you felt that happened in Kyiv? Is that ever going to be translated into the US from Kyiv? I mean, is there a pipeline where 

Keanan Duffty 12:17 

I think the pipeline's beginning? I think it's, I think it's at an emergent stage. Yeah, we did a panel at the same department store. And it was to a room of a couple 100 people, and you could feel that it's someone on the panel made a made a comment about the emergence of the fashion community, that being designers, photographers, stylists, you know, the greater fashion community beyond just designing and producing, but you can feel it's in that kind of, there's an urgency and an excitement that is always in the emergent stage of some kind of creative community. You know, and I think it's interesting that international publications are, you know, saying that it's the new Berlin, and it's kind of an easy, easy handle to put onto something, you know, because it can also be dismissed as well, and people can move on to the next city quite quickly. But I think in this case, it's true, it does feel like that. Because, you know, economics drives a lot of things, obviously, and having the opportunity to open a small coffee bar or open a design atelier, with probably not too much financial pressure. Yeah, it allows you to do exactly what you said to be focusing on the creativity, first and foremost, and the products, you know, I mean, I always say fashion, you have an amazing marketing campaign. But if the product isn't amazing, and doesn't connect with the consumer, in the truest sense, it won't really have longevity, you know, yeah, 

Emily Lane 13:43 

you talked about how, you know, this department store is bringing in these young emerging brands and blending them with these well established brands. And I love that, you know, we've talked about how artists and designers are a reflection of society. And so it makes perfect sense to me that by bringing in this young energy, fresh ideas that are reflecting the immediate culture that they live in, of course, the consumers are going to respond to that because it feels it feels authentic, it feels like the vibe that's happening around them. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a great model to be really looking at worldwide. I can see why eyes are on that. 

Keanan Duffty 14:22 

Yeah. Going back to your original point about the sort of fluidity of the fashion system. To me, that was a real solid indicator of this. You know, cuz you kind of live in a bit of an ivory tower in New York City, you know, it's a it's a rarefied sort of atmosphere here. And you do become very introspective. You know, there's a lot of navel gazing that goes on in the New York fashion world. Yeah, you know, and we kind of think we're the center of everything and you sort of really need to do something like go to a region that you haven't visited before, and really get into that community. Like get in the weeds with that community, meet them, go and visit At their studios go and talk to the designers, talk to them about their aspirations and dreams, you know, because designers are dreamers. And they're creating a dream that hopefully others will share in and it will be a sort of a shared experience. And to, to actually speak to them one on one was really an amazing thing to do, not just to go to the show and see the collection, but also to get behind the scenes with them. 

Bret Schnitker 15:20 

You know, that's the thing that's also changing in our landscape were, in years past these design brands that we would look at, we saw the facade, right? Sure, we really never saw the meet the people behind the grand design. And I think today, consumers, you know, as we talked about, to consumer economy, they want to hear the story. They want to know who the designer is, they want to know why they've created collections. And I think that's something that is an interesting twist. And I think an opportunity for these, you know, emerging designers all around the world, because the stories are exciting, right? Even if in Kyiv themselves, this is the every day they're they're living in surviving in Kyiv, for someone in New York who's navel gazing, like, oh, that's an interesting story, maybe I'll go look up some of these designers and I think they're in creates the opportunity and the diversity of, you know, 100 other fashion weeks in far flung places, you know, be able to harness that, and, and bring that experience to cities that that are used to, you know, the established brands, if you will, in New York, London, Paris, the ones that can really afford to do those things, or have been invited to really engage some of these boutique, farflung designers and bring them is just like, hey, look, this is, you've got to see this, too. Yeah, let's celebrate this, too. I think, I think again, that would be really interesting concept. 

Keanan Duffty 16:48 

I speak a lot, especially to young designers about integrity, and design integrity, but overall integrity, and purpose, like, why are you doing it? What do you want to achieve? What are you trying to say? And I think it's, it's a key factor. And going back to what you were speaking about, the consumer today wants to know that they it's not purely about the facade, they they do, they are buying into the dream, they are buying into the facade, but they also want to know that what's behind it really resonates with them with their values, you know, it's it's such a key thing. And it may purely be about the integrity of design, for example, about the love of fabric, about the the care and attention that goes into production and building something and building a garment and cutting a fabric and, you know, doing it the right way, doing something that has really a longevity to it, rather than being a kind of quick fix, right. And again, you know, that that you that you get to when you get up close and personal with a designer? You know, I was I was lucky to interview Tommy Hilfiger, about a year ago for Parsons, and you know, Tommy's an amazing, global fashion icon. And during this conversation, he was telling me about the adaptive clothing collection that Hilfiger have recently launched. And it was basically a startup and it was launched in very small way. But you know, I believe one of his children is has disabilities. That's what kind of had had really given him an interest to move into this sector. And, you know, it was it was so enlightening to me. And I know, Tommy, you know, but I didn't really know, that side of his design purpose. Yeah. Right. And it was so compelling. Yeah, it was so compelling and so compelling to students, too. Yeah. And I think those, you know, those stories, were actually starting to get too much more in fashion now, because there's an openness. You know, it's it's very hard today to be a Martin Margiela, and never give interviews and be hidden away and be the sort of genius behind the curtain. Today, the consumer really wants to know what the designer stands for, who they are, and what their, what their purposes, what they're trying to achieve with their, with their designs, and with their expression. 

Bret Schnitker 19:00 

Agreed. And, you know, I hate to keep beating the COVID thing, but I think COVID is a double edged sword, because there was a lot of tragedy that occurred during COVID. But there was this amazing drive for community we you know, and when we were having conversations with, you know, designers all over during COVID, there was just this real openness to having conversation, and I think it's the, you know, the advent of Zoom, if you will, it's come on and connected, I see even more of a unique way, the ability to jump on and have communications with people we're, I think, yeah, changed before everyone, you know, had blinders on. We're gonna go do this. And now people, I think there's a sense and there's this air of community and people working together. And, you know, I think I definitely think both can survive. She would still have a, you know, well established focused brand, but you can also engage community around you. 

Emily Lane 19:53 

Yeah, we've talked a little bit about the fluidity of the industry. I'd like to also talk a little bit about just the new trend or evolve trend of fluidity and fashion itself. I think you've had some experience with design several years ago working with an icon of art really David Bowie. And, you know, we're starting to see on the, you know, the runways now a lot more of fluidity and fashion and you know, breaking down gender roles, but it's really not a new concept. No, it's 

Keanan Duffty 20:25 

not, you know, you go back to this sort of, kind of, peacock period of the 60s. And you see, in the UK, in London, there was a movement called mods modernists. And they were young people who were from limited means very working class, but dressing their way out of, you know, a kind of an impoverished situation, they were dressing better than their betters, let's say better than the aristocracy better than the so called superiors, and they were dressing in quite a fluid way girls had short hair, you know, the boys were wearing a little bit of makeup. And, you know, they were kind of the beginning of the swinging 60s, because they were really listening to the record modernists because they were listening to modern jazz originally, and then that, that culture was taken up by a lot of 60s bands like The Who, and Kinks and so on. And it became a defining moment in the 60s. But you know, you think of those boys with kind of almost Beatle ish hair, and they would be, you know, shouted out in the streets by the kind of construction guys, you know, you're a boy or a girl, I can't tell, you know, that was the beginning of a sort of sexual expression. It was pre the legalization of homosexuality. So you kind of couldn't be out, you know, people couldn't be out, but they would sort of express themselves through their dress. And I think when homosexuality in the UK was legalized, they and it's incredible to think that there was a ton. It's like, incredible, but you know, that sort of opened the floodgates for a lot of expression in the creative world. So people like Bowie, for example, were kind of at the forefront of that. But you know, they've also been people like Syd Barrett from Pink Floyd, who famously wore makeup and very Pink Floyd were very flamboyant psychedelic clothes. So it has its genesis in that era of subculture, you know, so designers like Mary Quant, for example, we're creating these very sort of boyish looks for goals. So there would be less of an emphasis on the waistline, for example, it will be a mini dress that was kind of straight up and down, you know, and famously, the kind of, you know, sort of crop dresses too. But it was very much of that time. And it's evolved through certainly British subculture since then, you know, in the in the early 80s, there was a big sort of renaissance of that style, of which I was certainly part of, you know, which, which was called new romantics. And so you had people like, Boy George, that came out of that era groups like Duran Duran, for example, none of us were afraid of wearing a lot of makeup and very high shoes and kind of tottering around in these really outlandish outfits, you know, and it was, I mean, that was when I was in art school. So it's very much kind of de rigueur of that moment to sort of express yourself, and I still would, if I could get away with it today, I still would 

Bret Schnitker 23:15 

get away with it today. 

Keanan Duffty 23:17 

But, you know, it's it's sort of that's always been part and parcel of a fashion of so called subculture of the music industry, certain leisure, you know, and I think today, we're seeing a very healthy level of freedom acceptance in society, for a very non binary gender expression that I've never I've never seen before. I mean, it feels like a really powerful moments. And I think it's certainly something that, you know, the fashion industry is paying attention to, and is actually reacting to, there are a lot of collections that are now non gender specific. I mean, obviously, you have issues of fear, of issues of sizing and so on. But there's so much sort of non gender specific fashion happening now. You know, it's great. 

Bret Schnitker 24:07 

It's the period of discovery for that. But yeah, you know, just like you mentioned, you know, anatomically, you have challenges for fit, you know, and what we're seeing in a lot of this non binary fashion is pretty open silhouettes, very boxy kind of feels, there's not a celebration of form, like so much of fashion has done in the past. And so, you know, the exploration of that is what fascinates me because, you know, they're like, Okay, we're at this stage where we have to understand and work through all these kind of elements of design. Yeah. And then it'll be interesting to see what that evolution is in the next few years where they, you know, you can celebrate and atomics, you can celebrate fit and still be non binary, I think, and I think that's the next stage of Yeah, you know, that exploration will be interesting. 

Keanan Duffty 24:59 

I actually I see I saw two guys on the way here to the studio. Two guys on the street independently wearing skirts. Yeah. Oh, that's happening. You know, I mean, it's it's, uh, you know, I 

Bret Schnitker 25:10 

say Scottish, but 

Keanan Duffty 25:14 

actually it was actually phenomenal because I, you know, you see that a lot downtown. Sure. But in Midtown, around 42nd Street, maybe not so much, you know? Yeah. So that was kind of really refreshing. 

Bret Schnitker 25:26 

Yeah, agreed. Yeah. Well, the Scots have flubbed it for years. 

Emily Lane 25:30 

Right. Nice and breezy. That's right. 

Bret Schnitker 25:33 

Yeah, I just I mean, you know, you go back even in the Victorian times, I mean, it's always been a conversation, whether it's been on the table or not. Today, it's, it's, it's openly on the table. And I think that allows, again, designers as artists to reflect the world around them, and to start exploring the medium like you would a paintbrush to a canvas. Let's go have this conversation. 

Keanan Duffty 25:58 

And the societal so called norms are kind of evaporating, too. Yeah. So what's expected of the way a particular gender should dress is now not so much expected? Right? You know, I mean, we saw you know, with with going to say, casual Friday in the 90s, we saw an evolution of the way people are supposed to dress in the workplace. Yeah. And that was a shift that never went back, you know, I never had permanently changed the way we dress in the workplace. Yeah. Now we're in another moment where there's a shift going on, from the the sort of expected imprint that society puts on us Yeah, to the way where we should in quotation marks dress. 

Bret Schnitker 26:39 

It'll be interesting. 510 years from now, the societal norm, right? You know, I have a funny story. There's this friend of mine, and he was in commercial real estate. And he was going out to Silicon Valley, and he's a very conservative dresser still wears ties, you know, nothing against ice and just haven't worn one for a while and, and he was all decked out. I'm like, where are you going? He goes, Silicon Valley said, I wouldn't wear that. And he's like, What do you mean, he goes on going to a business meeting? He wouldn't listen to me. He comes back and he goes, holy smoke. He goes, I'm in this meeting with all these, you know, high tech, Silicon investors. And he goes, me, and intern were the only ones wearing my outfit. Everyone else was in tennis shoes and T shirts. And that's an example of, you know, five years from now we're going to be looking as they can you. Can you believe they did that? Yeah. music and fashion have always been interlinked. And so much of your history has been exactly that right. Yeah. music and fashion. Always been kind of the Johnny you've worked in? Yeah. Is maybe kind of a final question. Is music and fashion still? So linked? Is there still this driving force? That, you know, years ago, you talked about the David Bowie collections and all of this stuff going on? Do you feel that while music in fashion elements is still there? Do you think that the the musicians are informing as much in fashion as they used to? 

Keanan Duffty 28:06 

Well, I'll tell you a secret. I don't like fashion. Really? Yeah. I've never really been into fashion. I was, as a kid, I was inspired by this style of musicians. And I didn't equate that with fashion. And that's kind of what took me into studying fashion, because I was kind of into the look of things. I think the the economics of the music industry, and the economics of the fashion industry, have totally changed in the last decade. You know, musicians wouldn't go within 20 miles of a stylist until probably the 90s. You know, it was I mean, stylists, it didn't really exist as a kind of job until the 80s. It was, you know, there's famously Caroline Baker, who's one of the greatest editors in the UK, who was the first person to be called a stylist, as far as I know. So the idea of a stylist dressing a musician was kind of an anathema. It was, you know, musicians dressed themselves, right? You know, or they were, they usually were given things because they never want to pay for anything. But I think today the economics have changed that it's become a business model and a revenue stream. So for the music industry, there's a revenue generator, because you can't, you know, Taylor Swift sells records. And probably she's one of the few Yeah, nobody else is really selling music and streaming is so microscopically small in terms of revenue streams. So musicians are looking for other ways to make a living, yeah, and fashion, clothing, apparel, all of that stuff is a possibility, especially if they get bigger and bigger in a more prominent name. And similarly, I think the fashion industry sees the marketing opportunity of of a musical artist who has global recognition. I mean, also now you have the influencer, which is you don't need to be a music musician to have a massive influence. And actually, most influences have a broader influence than many musicians do. So it's a very, it's a very sort of the paradigms really really shifted. But I think there's a mutual sort of benefit in music and fashion now to work together. You know, David Bowie, the estate of David Bowie just opened a store on Wooster Street in Soho, which is open until January. And there's a similar store in London on Heddon Street where the famous phone box picture from Ziggy Stardust is taken. And it's selling David Bowie merchandise for three months only, you know, in the middle of Soho. So this is an indication of where things are going with music. You know, Bowie was often ahead of the curve with that stuff to, you know, kind of being able to monetize what he was doing as a creative artist, but doing it in a kind of a cool way. So it didn't lose credibility. But I think a lot of music artists today don't really care about credibility is that the old notion of credibility doesn't exist, of 

Bret Schnitker 30:48 

course, and absolutely right. Are you still playing? 

Keanan Duffty 30:50 

I am still playing in a band or Yeah, I have my band Slinky Vagabond. We just got a new record out. Oh, very cool. Yeah. It's called King Boy Vandals, which is an anagram of Slinky Vagabond. It's made with my friend, Fabio Fabbri, who's an Italian guitarist and producer, available on all the platforms. Platforms. We have CDs, we have vinyl 

Bret Schnitker 31:12 

burning vinyl. Yeah. Oh, that's killer. Because my God, we had a conversation the other night how vinyl has exploded. Yeah. Everyone now wants vinyl. Yeah. 

Keanan Duffty 31:22 

I mean, I think that's the going back to fashion. That's the thing about fashion that it's about products. And you can have amazing storytelling, amazing marketing. And that needs to happen to but the consumer, they want the product, you know, they might I still have clothes from Vivienne Westwood that I have had from the earliest, sort of early 80s. They don't fit me anymore. They haven't fitted me for a long time. But I keep them because I'm emotionally connected to them. I remember where I was, and when I bought them and you know, where I was falling down when I was wearing them in various nightclubs. And and it's really in my resemble that it's really important to sort of have that. And I think that's one thing that all the evolutions happening in fashion right now. That's one thing I don't think is going to change the products is really the key. 

Bret Schnitker 32:13 

Yeah, Agreed. Agreed. What do you think about digital fashion? 

Keanan Duffty 32:17 

It's very interesting. I mean, I was talking to a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago, and he's sort of launched a it's kind of digital fashion collection. And I was saying to him, I've always wanted to get paid for designing clothes that don't exist. 

Bret Schnitker 32:29 

So much easier. Get rid of the manufacturing. 

Emily Lane 32:32 

Sustainable. Yeah. Well, this has just been a fantastic conversations really fascinating. Your history, your perspective. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much. If you ever need a cellist to join you on an upcoming recording, you can call me I'm gonna be 

Keanan Duffty 32:48 

I'm gonna be calling you because I did an album with subway performers in New York about five or six years ago, and it's called subway symphonies. And I found people on the subway had a viola player had a soprano opera singer. So yeah, I'll be calling you don't worry. 

Emily Lane 33:05 

Thank you so much, Keanan. Thank you. Don't forget to subscribe so you can stay apprised of upcoming episodes of Clothing Coulture. 

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