Michael Drummond, Bret Schnitker, Emily Lane
November 18, 2025
Michael Drummond 00:02
The music has always been a big inspiration. They like listen for the story and the song or the sounds. I love to listen to other artists talk like their interviews, reading a book and just that. Or if you're walking, I like to walk a lot, and sometimes I'll play this game where, like, you pass somebody in there in a conversation, and you get just, like, a few words, and then you're like, let's turn that into a story. You know.
Emily Lane 00:39
Welcome to Clothing Coulture, a fashion industry podcast at the intersection of technology and innovation. I'm Emily Lane
Bret Schnitker 00:47
and I'm Bret Schnitker. We speak with experts and disruptors who are moving the industry forward and discuss solutions to real industry challenges.
Emily Lane 00:55
Clothing Coulture is produced by stars Design Group, a global design and production house with more than 30 years of experience.
Emily Lane 01:09
Welcome back to another episode of Clothing Coulture This week, I am absolutely delighted and excited to bring to you a conversation with a long time friend and a fashion designer I have admired for years and years, Michael Drummond,
Bret Schnitker 01:28
he's come such a long way from downstairs.
Emily Lane 01:35
Well, we are fortunate to have you in an atelier at Stars
Bret Schnitker 01:38
A little atelier downstairs and Emily's got a direct shopping experience.
Michael Drummond 01:44
I pinch myself every day go down there and I'm like, This is amazing.
Emily Lane 01:48
Well, I you have had such a fascinating career to me. I I first became familiar with you when you were on Project Runway, which is such a spotlight. You know, you here. You are, you're, you know, on the stage in front of millions. I'd love to talk with you a little bit about what that experience was like and how it shaped you as a designer today, and
Bret Schnitker 02:14
you looked like that tall now.
Michael Drummond 02:15
Everybody- It's so interesting. People would always say, Oh, I thought you'd be taller and,
Bret Schnitker 02:19
oh, that's hilarious.
Emily Lane 02:20
Well, you have a tall personality.
Michael Drummond 02:22
Thought you would be nicer. Yeah, no, they didn't say that. I was saying I'd say that to them. I digress. I think you know the question, when you said millions,
Bret Schnitker 02:42
yes, you're like, holy shit. Now I'm gonna be nervous.
Michael Drummond 02:45
Maybe, yeah, no, I just my strategy was, like, this camera in my face, you know, and I've worked on the other side of that camera, so I kind of had a vibe of what they might be trying to do or whatever, you know. But I never really, I just thought, this is just a black hole that doesn't. Nothing exists behind here. So don't get nervous about,
Emily Lane 03:04
yeah, it's just a person, right?
Michael Drummond 03:05
Yeah, it was, yeah. Everybody was, you know, although the the cameraman and the PAs, everybody's in black, and they all stunk. And, I mean, I was like, everybody was in sweaty, hot Parsons, they turn off the air conditioner,
Bret Schnitker 03:18
yeah, you know that so many episodes people were dying,
Michael Drummond 03:21
yeah, because they don't want the sound to trip up the air conditioning to trip up the sound, yeah, so hot. Just Yes.
Bret Schnitker 03:31
Sweat shops still exist.
Michael Drummond 03:35
They very much do, yes, and in New York, all across the world, unfortunately, um, but I think, you know, I
Bret Schnitker 03:45
like, we should cut and turn off our air conditioning, just so you feel, is
Michael Drummond 03:49
it on right now? I don't know. It is these things, these pieces of clothes, um, I like to be cliche about it and say it was the best of times and it was the worst times. Yeah, it was, I mean, I met so many incredible people. It's a gauntlet you, you're forced to create so quickly, and you either, you know, make it, or you don't, and, and, and I met a lot of really incredible people. I met some crazy people, yeah, and I bet that some of those crazy people thought that they had met crazy people, so it was a really interesting kind of community. And I feel as if, when I was when they reached out to me the first time, I was like, No, there's no way. I'm a knitwear designer. I don't I wouldn't know what I'm doing. And then they reached out again. And I was like, Well, why not? Yeah, and they gave us these, like, I don't know, like, 200 or something, page, psychological exam questionnaire, you know, wow. And I mean, I
Bret Schnitker 04:52
Which we all fail. We're in the fashion
Michael Drummond 04:53
I feel like, probably, I don't know, yeah, but it was crazy bring them up, kind of, kind of like, the, you know, the. Same question asked in a different way, over and over again and and I thought it's really interesting, because I think they, they had a psychologist talk with us afterwards, and I think that they were making the perfect story,
Emily Lane 05:15
yeah, that sounds like it. So,
Bret Schnitker 05:17
yeah, I thought the same thing. I thought, you know, they, they want drama, yeah, so they're probably doing these psychological tests to say, Okay, here's a clash up shit disturber, let's put him in.
Michael Drummond 05:27
100% it, yeah. And I think, you know, I was on Bravo, those, what was the seven years? I think I was season eight, and then it switched to Lifetime. And I didn't even like, it didn't click to me, you know, like, you know, Lifetime, Bravo.
Emily Lane 05:44
Their drama is higher on Lifetime.
Michael Drummond 05:47
So I remember just there was a moment when
Bret Schnitker 05:50
someone must die on the side, almost died - the boyfriend that was chagrined five years ago.
Michael Drummond 05:58
Exactly, they kind of want you to, like, half dead, I think, but, but I remember, there's a moment when I was in the restroom and I was just like, This is not as much about design as I thought it was gonna be, like, washing my hands and, you know, that's like, your one reprieve is go to the restroom because there's no camera people or anything. You're still miked, whatever. Yeah. So
Emily Lane 06:19
did that pressure in dealing with, you know, a very complicated environment and a broad range of personalities? Did that help kind of prepare you for, I don't know, life on your own as a designer.
Michael Drummond 06:36
I mean, yeah, I was still pretty young and green.
Bret Schnitker 06:40
You look green on the side a couple times. Yeah?
Michael Drummond 06:45
Well, the Crafty wasn't great, but, or the things that they they put us through, right? Probably the heat, oh my gosh, yeah, that, that one episode with Ivy where I was like, I wanted to pull my mic down and be like, and you were so nice. They're playing us girl, you know, like,
Bret Schnitker 07:01
so nice, and Ivy fell for it, though it's hard, and you were nice.
Michael Drummond 07:07
It's hard because it's, you know, you got so much pressure. There's like, $100,000 or whatever, time and but, but I feel like after that, you know, of course, there's so much this is, like, we could have a whole podcast. Oh, I'm sure, yeah, but, um, but I feel like afterwards it did, you know, thicken the skin. And, you know, I watched my other, my other contestant, slash friends, navigate that world too. And I kind of watched how they, how they what they did that worked, and what they did that didn't. And I kind of followed that track and tried to stay authentic with myself. Yeah, and I feel as if a lot of opportunities came, some good, some bad, and that was nice. And I feel like today I wear project runaway like a really loose cloth that, you know, it's either yes or what are you talking about?
Bret Schnitker 08:03
We all watch these wild shows. We watch, you know, fashion shows and cooking shows, and they're all under these pressure cookers, like almost unrealistic time frames. And you kind of think, hey, look designs a creative process. Were there people on there that were brilliant designers, but failed because they couldn't withstand the time test, right? You know, because you creative takes time, right? You know, sometimes you got to sit there and percolate a little bit, and you draw or, you know, drape a mannequin. It doesn't look right, and you want to be able to tear it down. In this situation, you don't have that luxury, like you are moving at light speed. And I'm not really sure, is that reality, you know,
Michael Drummond 08:43
well, what you see, what they say you get, is what you get, unbelievable, minus the time that they pull you from the room to have you talk to your your interview, so you have less time even. Yeah, but everybody, pretty much has the same amount of time subtracted because of that interview, you know, give or take, camera malfunctions, whatever.
Bret Schnitker 09:04
But did you feel like you had enough time to really?
Michael Drummond 09:07
No,
Bret Schnitker 09:08
yeah, that's the thing that's so interesting.
Michael Drummond 09:10
But in that way, I mean, I'm pretty good under pressure, but, yeah, I think that. I mean, you have no time to think about making a mistake.
Bret Schnitker 09:21
It'd be interesting to have a show that says, hey, look, we've got a project, and you got plenty of time to do it. We'll edit out all the creative time. But, you know,
Michael Drummond 09:29
Than there is no drama, did you get you've got your artists hanging back at the Paris cafe and, you know, smoking cigarettes, I'll get to it.
Bret Schnitker 09:39
Yeah, and do they get to it? I guess, probably,
Michael Drummond 09:43
sometimes, probably Yeah.
Emily Lane 09:46
something that I've learned about you is that you're you excel in having your alone time and quiet time, that it's a big part of your creative process. And I'm just curious. You know, going into the limelight and now being more in a public's eye. How was that for you from, you know, an emotional standpoint of now, now people think of me differently or want something from me, or was it was that a difficult thing for you?
Michael Drummond 10:18
Yes.
Emily Lane 10:19
Quick answer,
Michael Drummond 10:21
yeah, absolutely. Emily, that was very, very difficult. And I luckily, I had won a competition in St Louis that, at the time, had felt like a big deal, but, I mean, it was, but for me, I was like, Okay, well, this is a really cool opportunity that shows that, like, Okay, I've got kind of what it takes. And then, in my world changed after that small, you know, design competition in St Louis, people were changed. Opportunities changed, yeah, and I knew that going in to Project Runway, no matter what the outcome, everything was gonna change, like the way my family saw me, everything and and that, I don't think anybody can really prepare you for that, right? So I knew it. And I remember I called my best friend after they called me to tell me they were, you know, letting me on the show, and she said I would be filled with trepidation, no congratulations or anything. And I was like, Yeah, you're probably right, but, um, but it's okay, you know, I think that again, I think it's like, for me, it's the most important thing was just finding the people that didn't change and knowing like, what was my goal, what was my vision? Why did I do it? And try not to get sidetracked, because I think that there's a lot of devils and Gods outside,
Emily Lane 11:54
yeah, chirping on your shoulder, yeah, yeah, you've had a unique opportunity to get your hands in different facets of expression. With regards to fashion, you've curated exhibitions. You've had your own exhibition with the World Chess Hall of Fame that married these concepts of being played, which I think is so apropos post Project Runway. How does art influence fashion? And fashion influence art for you?
Michael Drummond 12:27
I was thinking when you were saying that, I was like, God, I'm really lucky. It's been a nice little ride. I'm excited to take it further. It's interesting because you hear some designers that I really admire and think of them as artists. Say it's not art, and I'm like, What are you? Are you kidding me? Like, I get a visceral reaction from Alexander McQueen in the way that, like when I hear, like Arvo Pärt play, you know, a composition of his, or, you know, like when you see a Frida Kahlo painting, I get that same reaction. So when I hear like, people that I admire in the fashion world say things like, it's not art, it's totally different. I'm like, I guess maybe because they're so beat down by the commerce aspect of it, maybe
Bret Schnitker 13:13
it is a unique bend. But I think we paint with fabric, and they paint with brush You know, artists, painting. Artists will paint with brush. It is art. I mean creativity, exploration, evolution, where every bit the art scene that any other kind of genre of art exists, I think, you know, the only little nuance to that, and probably the same nuance for a working artist and painting too, has to have be a little bit like I'd love to make a living doing what I love, right? I would think fashion is, you know, the only thing that I think is unique about fashion is that you don't bring a painting with you and walk around with this painting through the street saying, This is me. Yeah, when people put clothing on from fashion designers, they sort of wear it as a badge of who they are. You know, they they're part of this particular tribe, or that look inspires a particular emotion or feeling from wearing a particular garment. So, you know, those are kind of the nuances that I see when it comes to fashion, because it's ever present. We're wearing it all the time. You know, you do have to develop a tribe if you're gonna you know, there is a commercial aspect to it. But I don't think it's a departure from art and design. I mean, at least the successful ones, right?
Michael Drummond 14:33
I don't mean, did you have something,
Emily Lane 14:35
I was just when you were talking about that, you know, that there's a commerce to all, you know a lot of successful art forms. You know, successful painters that can sell a painting for a million dollars, it's still art. Just because they're selling it doesn't mean it's not art. So
Bret Schnitker 14:50
most of them are dead, someone else.
Emily Lane 14:55
You know, food is art. We pay for food, but we go to restaurants where the food is exquisite. Physically plated, and the nuances of layers are complex and layered, you know. So there's, there's, there is art in this. I guess it's a fair question to say, How is you as an artist, as a designer? How do you balance that need for commerce, because you do need to sell to make a living, versus maintaining true to yourself with regards to your artist heart.
Michael Drummond 15:26
I grew up in the 90s, so we would always say, like, these things, you know, these trendy things that we talk about, like, That guy's a poser, yeah, sell out, you know. And I totally subscribed to that idea, like I used to dive in dumpsters, you know, in St Louis, St Louis and ninth used to be a rag mill, and my friends and I would go that were interested in making clothes for ourselves, nobody else, because we couldn't find the clothes we wanted. And, you know, we would, we would be like, that's that was our vibe, that was our expression, and that was our art, and, um, and I'm not going to bend the crowbar we live in like a capitalist world. So I want to be able to create. I'm going to find the way to do it in the most ethical way that feels still punk, you know, like a la Vivian Westwood or whomever. So I'm like, that's kind of where I feel. I hope I'm making sense, but I feel like I want to make work. I want to be able to employ great other artists or crafts people. Maybe arts and crafts are the same, but and I want to be able to do it in a safe environment with a living wage, so that we don't have to worry about my car broke down, or whatever, even though your car broke, you did several times and and I want to be because then you can freely think about the art that you want to make. You don't have the buzz of your outside world,
Bret Schnitker 16:56
but in your creative process, when you're designing a collection together, you know, are you pursuing it from a discovery process and a pure design process and you hope that your audience gets it and buys it? Or is there any element of your design where you go, you know, I blew out of that MooMoo, right? Yeah, I'm gonna do four more mumu's, but I'm gonna update them. Is there a part of, you know, commercial thought process, or merchant process? That's probably a better word. You know, are you? Do you have to play merchant and designer as you're creating? Do you think about those things, you know, when you're creating collections, with respect to even silhouette or fabrication or color?
Michael Drummond 17:39
Absolutely, and I feel like that I've been pivoting all the time within the past few years, because I do have several approaches. One is yes, that Moo Moo sold, and then they asked for pockets, so I added those new yes innovation, new fabrication, new design pattern, keep that silhouette, because it's still selling, and it's bread and butter, and then there's also spaghetti on the wall, like, I'm thinking about this, just do it, you know? And in, who cares? Like,
Bret Schnitker 17:40
that's the assortment, right? It's kind of like I'm stretching and being super innovative here, and I'm being really artistic, and hope somebody gets it. And then I've kind of balancing it with the merchant aspect. And I think that kind of creates, it raises the bar as an artist. Because you do have to think all those things.
Michael Drummond 18:31
I think so. And I think, I mean, you look around it fashion, and we've got Instagram and all these things that are like regenerating the same thing over and over again, you know, we've got the cafe with the fiddlehead Fern, and, you know, everything the tile and everything's the same and and I think that's sort of happening with fashion too. Thank God for street photographers and, yeah, and certain bloggers. But I do think that, like mainstream fashion, even these couture collections, I'm getting underwhelmed. And I think it's really exciting to see the young designers who don't have the finances, who do the spaghetti on the wall, create and they also, I have found out the hard way that we have to make things that I don't think my stuff is boring, but there are some pieces,
Bret Schnitker 19:22
Your stuff in not boring.
Michael Drummond 19:23
thank you. But I do think there are pieces that I make that are very usable, Yep,
Emily Lane 19:30
yeah, like the piece I'm wearing today? Yes, yeah, versatile, usable, yeah. It has pockets, all those things you need.
Emily Lane 19:38
So you talk about the spaghetti on the wall. You know that you're that spaghetti is coming, that sauce, the special sauce, right? It's getting inspiration from somewhere. What are your sources of inspiration that you draw upon?
Michael Drummond 19:52
I mean, Emily, everything, everything. I think music has always been a big inspiration. Conversation, they like listen for the story and the song or the sounds. I love to listen to other artists talk like their interviews, reading the book and just that. Or if you're walking, I like to walk a lot, and sometimes I'll play this game where, like, you pass somebody in there in a conversation, and you get just like, a few words, and then you're like, let's turn that into a story, you know, or so, anything. And I mean, there also, there was this, when I was in community college, I had a really great photo professor named Janice Nessar Chu and she, I don't know the name of this artist, but she could tell you, but she wasn't well known, but she would restrict herself to photographing only one room of her house. So like finding the light on the corner of that table and making it abstract. So I think that that's a really cool process. And I feel like I feel as if, when I'm now pivoting and, you know, using mostly dead stock materials, that forces me to find that that special thing, yeah, or how can I manipulate it to make it special?
Emily Lane 21:13
That definitely harkens back to your dumpster diving days is that when you realized you wanted to be a designer, when you making clothes that nobody else had.
Michael Drummond 21:23
I don't remember when Emily, but I think that I used to dress my, my sister's Barbies up all the time, and, like, I was obsessed with Catwoman. So one of them totally got, like, you know, electrical tape wrapped around her, and she was,
Emily Lane 21:37
I think you're still obsessed with Catwoman.
Michael Drummond 21:39
She's downstairs in like, an unopened box. Yeah? No. Catwoman is a very distinct point of departure. I mean, look, she was, like, all done and then deconstructed by the end of the film, right? Yeah, it's a sex pot and she was tough. Yeah, it was actually a Catwoman movie. It wasn't a Batman movie. You're absolutely right. Anyway. Is
Bret Schnitker 22:01
that what you think when you design? You think, I'm designing for Catwoman.
Michael Drummond 22:04
no, I don't. I don't. I used to think like, would Tori Amos wear this and and I still probably think that a little bit like, I'll go back on her archives. I her, I'm totally blanking Karen Binns, I think is her name. That's her stylist, and I just love her. And the interesting thing about Karen Binns is she mostly styles like hip hop artists.
Emily Lane 22:29
Oh,
Michael Drummond 22:30
It's crazy. And that's not Tory style, no,
Michael Drummond 22:34
like, it's like her catalog is all, like, all these rappers, and then Tori was so I've always
Bret Schnitker 22:41
an amazing storyteller, Tori,
Michael Drummond 22:42
amazing story, amazing storyteller. And now I think I think about like, what would Emily wear? Or what would my friend Saskia or Manon wear? Because they're who I'm dressing, and those are the people I care to dress, and they're my tribe. I think
Emily Lane 23:01
absolutely your tribe. Yeah, I'm looking forward. I have a major birthday coming up, everybody, just in case you didn't know, it's one of those decade birthdays, and I cannot wait to wear one of your latest, boldest pieces. And, yeah, I'm definitely Yes, that's right. So we'll make sure and share a photo of that, because it is extraordinary.
Michael Drummond 23:26
Thank you. It's all coming together. That's gonna be a powerful day. I know I'm excited. Thank you for being a part of it in some way.
Emily Lane 23:34
Of course. So as a designer, you have good days, bad days, hard moments and wonderful moments. Give us an example of, like, what's one of the moments where, like, Ah, I've accomplished this great goal. Life is amazing.
Michael Drummond 23:49
Well, the first thing that came into my mind was when Sophia had been the curator for our queen within I had worked with her as like, kind of help styling the dresses for the catalog via she was, I think, in London, and so it was over Skype, and we got, we had a rapport. She's very, very kind, present person. And I she had to come to St Louis for the installation, the final installation, and I had a fashion show happening, and I didn't know she was there, but she was in the audience, and she saw some of my shoes. I made these really weird wooden shoes. Remember, though, yeah, and, and later, she said, You know, I'm really interested in your shoes. And I was like, you can't really wear them, the will kiss you. Like, like, you'll follow over. And she was like, No, For the exhibit,
Bret Schnitker 24:42
Parisian designers, know, and they designed them anyway, right?
Michael Drummond 24:45
Yes, in shoes, yeah, oh. They were like who cares you will be fine, I mean, yeah,
Emily Lane 24:52
50 pound shoe. No problem
Michael Drummond 24:54
with the kids say, ef around, find out, or something like that. That's right. Um, but, but yeah. So she. Wanted to put him in the show, and I pretty much lost it for like three days. My boyfriend was like, people usually cry when they're sad. And I was like, time for you to go, yeah? So happy,
Emily Lane 25:13
yeah, to be in an exhibition celebrating Alexander McQueen,
Michael Drummond 25:17
yeah, and other amazing Vivian Westwood, Comme des Garson, like,
Emily Lane 25:27
pretty amazing. This is a touring exhibit that's still touring today, isn't it?
Michael Drummond 25:31
It is not currently touring, but it has been, I think I can't speak for don't shoot the messenger. I'm not sure, but I think it's being divided up for new exhibits. Okay, so, yeah, yeah, they still have my shoes, so maybe they'll land somewhere.
Bret Schnitker 25:46
So we all kind of have these tough days. These are tough periods or tough moments. And you know, you kind of think designers need to be actively inspired and in a good frame of mind to design collections. I think one famous designer that Em tends to like a lot when he was alive, Alexander, McQueen yeah, he kind of was inspired through challenge, right? You know, he, he battled emotional challenges and it, it drove him to create despite difficult times. What was a difficult time for you and what was a real difficult period, and did that hinder creativity? Did that make you question you know your your career choice, or did it inspire evolution and passion to create a collection, you know, based upon that, you know, does it do? Does creativity and design help you work through challenge, or, you know, are there moments where you have to take a break?
Michael Drummond 26:59
Hmm, um, I guess I don't know how this is gonna sound, but I feel like pain is subjective, so I don't know what I can empathize but I'll never really know what someone else is going through. But I like to think I probably had a pretty hard life, and I like I feel, you know, and speak to my family on my choice, yeah? So there was a lot of, like, soul searching and finding the right people to, like, make sure that I wasn't in a pit somewhere. Yeah, that can be difficult, and I think a lot of the time. So this is such a funny question, just because today, even my meditation was about discomfort, that I listen to one every morning, and you know, then I'm like, driving, and my car is like, really, you're gonna get that message over and over, yeah. And then I talk with my friend in LA this afternoon, and she's having a really hard time. And I, you know, I, my advice was this too shall pass. And you the best advice is to talk about it and do the work. You know, you have to put action, because action is when she says, she said, Oh, the idle hands to the devil's playground. I work. That's how I cope with, like, I create, yeah? And what did Meryl Streep said, take your broken heart and make art with it. I love that, yeah? And I think I do that all the time. Yeah. That's how I like, I when I'm sad about this, the world's state of the world, like, you know, I'm like, What can I say that's not like beating someone over the head, but still makes me feel like I've said something.
Emily Lane 28:48
I think you've done that very successfully. You know, some of your recent work is showing this beautiful, thoughtful embroidery that you know it's, it's the weeping eye over the Capitol pillar. You know, things like that, that, you know they're not in your face, but there's definitely the feeling of of you know what's going on right now, and it's coming through in a really sophisticated way. Thank you, and I think that's something I've seen year over year with you. So you're really wonderful innovator and a good storyteller about what's happening in our times. We We just did a full podcast recording on the Paris Fashion Week, Spring/Summer, 2026 and we found that just to be a common theme of what's happening in the fashion industry right now, people are really focusing on their work as a social commentary, but not in a again, in your face, way, as a way to to showcase hope, positivity, light. I thought, I just think it's an amazing thing what's happening right now, like fashion is coming together. As a community to unite and, you know, show strength. Do you think that community plays a big role in buoying your yourself as a solopreneur?
Michael Drummond 30:13
I think it more so now than ever. I think that, you know, it's not great to be on an island by yourself, so I mean that you're gonna run out of you know, what is it things to talk to plants or whatever? I think community does play a role. And I'd love to be able to, why am I, like, not thinking of the word that starts with C right now? You know, collaborate. Thank you so much. Yeah, collaboration, because collaboration will put you out of your own box. You might butt heads, but if you can, like, get through, you're gonna be bigger on both ends. And we need community, and even if you don't agree with somebody, it's so much better to talk it out or to, like, hear their side, and anything that you do, whether it's at the grocery store or, you know, I'm terrible. I hate driving. I'm not that. Maybe one day I'll be a better driver, but I'm an angry driver.
Emily Lane 31:23
Oh, so dream for you is to to be able to have your own driver.
Michael Drummond 31:28
Oh yeah, I love even easier, just nice public transport. I like that. So need to get on the speaking of community, you go on a bus and everyone's on it. I mean, especially in a major city, you're you were forced to be with everyone, or, you know, you are going on, obviously, like, by your own choice, but, but your community? Yes, yeah, it's so important. I mean, we're humans. We that's how we evolved, just through our community. So we need each other,
Bret Schnitker 31:59
and it's so weird human I don't know physics, if you will. You know you you compress people in a tightly knit group, and it gets too tight, and that group explodes. And likewise, today, we have so much divisiveness in our society trying to rip people apart, and the result of that, that stretching out, is that community starting to develop with like minded interests. To, you know, we're seeing this growth and building in community, and I think, I think it's healthy. I think, you know, being able to surround yourself with other creatives and hopefully inspire each other and help each other answer questions, I think, is going to rise, rise the tide. We, we live in a challenging time for designers. You know, we have department stores that don't pioneer new brands like they used to. We have overcrowded online web space. We there are a ton of challenges out there. And how do you get your voice out? And, you know, it's enough in a day just to be creating new garments, then you have to all of a sudden put all these other hats on. That's challenging, and I think some of that can be solved by community.
Michael Drummond 33:10
Well, we're doing that with United Coulture. I mean, I was just even in the email, you know, Fikret, I said I can help you with that.
Bret Schnitker 33:19
Was a wonderful you know, today we've got a really good partner that's weighing in on helping designers within this community and hopefully expanding throughout the world. Frankly, and this guy is the epitome of community. He steps outside of himself. He's a Go Giver, yeah!
Michael Drummond 33:37
It's, I mean, and that's that, that action will inspire more action. Yeah, I was inspired by that action. Like, how can I be better and, and I've never in my entire existence as a person in the fashion world experienced anything like this. So that is for me. Like my highway is opened up again, yeah, you know, and my highway was totally closed on the dark woods or something,
Bret Schnitker 34:06
you know, all those things start rising up. And I think we have to break those walls down again and realize that, look, this is, this is holistic people helping each other, and it's in it. And if we all stay consistent, we all stay focused, it will work, yeah, absolutely.
Michael Drummond 34:21
And it's so interesting. Even per our earlier conversation, we're so not used to that, to having that, you know, we're a little bit like, what's, what's really going on here, right? But what if it doesn't, what if it doesn't have to.
Emily Lane 34:37
Sounds so traumatic,
Michael Drummond 34:38
little bit. But I think
Bret Schnitker 34:41
I mean designer PTSD, yeah, it's hard to overcome those over year after year after year. And I think, look, there's no in all good business. You see, even in business that we're in the business of fashion, when the client wins and we. Win and the factory wins. The tide rises. Everyone can win, right right there. There's not this level of distress. Good business tears down walls, where, in some cases, politicians try to raise walls. You know, different power struggles exist. Good business and good philosophy and good good, I think good intention. As much as we can be as broken human beings, the tide can rise. Everyone can see a benefit, you know, and I think it'll tear down those walls, and we'll, we'll see success.
Michael Drummond 35:36
Absolutely, I was thinking about Fern Malice when you were talking about, oh, yeah, how they how she talks about, you know, Michael Kors had a fashion show and, like, the base was bumping and the ceiling was crumbling and it was unsafe, and they were like, We need a place to, like, show our work together. That's a place we can go to two times a year, you know, and and have the space for all our collections. They came together, yeah. And that's New York Fashion Week, right? And amazing is, it's amazing, and that's, that's what we got. Paris, yeah, you know, Milan. Milan, Oh, yeah.
Bret Schnitker 36:19
I was shocked at how many Fashion Weeks, over 140 around the world. And that's that's a statement of excitement. It is knowing that the world is embracing fashion is art, in my opinion. And you see a rising collab, right? And I think that's this little fringy part of community starting to raise up and saying, Hey, maybe we need to get together and try something
Michael Drummond 36:41
we absolutely do. I think I see it happening, and I'm really excited about the nouveau fashion. Yeah,
Emily Lane 36:48
the future. So what's next for you? Anything exciting on the horizon?
Michael Drummond 36:53
Well, my corset is going to Paris, yes, and I am gonna get through the holidays, so work that out like that's bread and butter. And my plan is, I'm in a really great space right now. I'm able to take some risks, so I'm gonna take those risks, because this is the chance for me, you're not growing if you don't take risks. Yeah, and I can, I yeah, you're really not right. You're just, you're kind of, that's yeah, coasting.
Emily Lane 37:25
You said yesterday, and I loved I loved it when you said this, you said that you're gonna put your risk into work rather than life. And I think that's pretty darn good advice.
Michael Drummond 37:37
I said that. That's cool!
Emily Lane 37:39
I made note of it, like I typed it down like Michael Drummond quote.
Michael Drummond 37:43
But, yeah, no, I totally am. I'm positioned right now. I'm so lucky, like, I had really hard couple five years or whatever, and I'm just like, Okay, I'm in a space where I can take some risks with my work, be it, like physically and or just commercially, and I want to do that, and I want to, you know, and
Bret Schnitker 38:04
it's interesting, when you say, you take risks, the outcome is so unbelievable. You call them risks. I call them creative works of genius, because you look at these things that you consider, like the push, and you're like, like that piece that you know, Emily's gonna wear in Paris, everyone that sees that piece is just blown away. And that had to be an element of risk for you. It was a lot of work, certainly, right? That was something that you probably stretched the boundaries of of understanding a touch, because you had to play with so many different materials. And, yeah, you know, it was, it was out there, but I got to tell you, that thing should have a spotlight on it, spinning, saying, Michael Drummond, because that is enough. It's just an insane
Michael Drummond 38:55
Thank you. Yeah, it was, what do you call it, like a trance. So I didn't really, I mean, I'm glad that it ended up the way it did. And I definitely fought with it a bit because I'd like, lace it up. I was like, that's not it. And I just wanted it to be, you know. But I also was in a zone, man. Like,
Bret Schnitker 39:14
love the zone, yeah, when you're in the zone, wow, yeah, watch out.
Emily Lane 39:19
So you made that piece originally for the ALT BALL, which we had a conversation with your good friend Mondo Guerra during the ALT BALL, because he came in for that. And I remember, you know, seeing this exploration as you worked through that corset. That's such a meaningful event and wonderful way to stretch your creative limits, participating in adventures like that.
Michael Drummond 39:46
Sometimes you need those like things that maybe are like you said, like a risk, where you're like, I might not make anything, but this is my opportunity to make something outlandish or whatever, and and. Really push your own boundaries, yeah? And hopefully, you know, I had a vision for that, course, and that was not what happened. That how it always is. I like how it ended, yeah?
Emily Lane 40:11
But yeah, yeah. I think about sculptors. I don't remember who, who the quote came from, but it was somebody that worked in stone. And, you know, as you're chiseling away stone, you start and you have this idea of what this sculpture is going to look like, but there's little fissures and cracks in stone, and things break off, and then all of a sudden, you're reinventing your idea. And I think fashion is much the same way, like you get your hands on it, and the fabric might not drape the way you want it to, or this thing might not be able to accomplish what you had in your head. But in the end, something better comes along
Michael Drummond 40:46
totally and you're there's that moment when that thing breaks off, and you're like, No, this is terrible. All over. I want to quit. And then maybe you put it down, but then you're like, Okay, what's the new way to see this? Right? And and then that, that's when I think the sweet spot happens, because, at least for me, because then you no longer are in your kind of like your path. You're now taking a new journey, like era, like a new discovery on that design, and it might be something unusual, and if you can save it and make it workable and beautiful,
Emily Lane 41:26
it's a whole story behind evolution.
Michael Drummond 41:29
What did Sharon say? I'm gonna mispronounce Sharon Graubard. Thank you. Yeah. She told me about this artist who, of course, I don't remember, but I'll tell you, and we can link it. But she said, you know, he, he had a community of painters, and, you know, he would go to his studio, and everyone was painting, everyone was painting, and then they would, one by one leave the room, and he continued to paint. And eventually he left the room. Oh, you know, like the spirit came in, I know. And I feel like I've told other artists that, and they're like, what you just did, yes, yeah, and that's what that course, it was okay.
Emily Lane 42:13
I feel so honored. Well, before we wrap today, I would love it if you could share some advice to some aspiring designers who maybe, like you are dressing Barbies or dumpster diving and, you know, can't find what they want, but believe that they might have a chance in this industry. What advice would you share?
Michael Drummond 42:33
I would say, be kind, and you're gonna obviously have ups and downs, and just keep putting the work in, believe in yourself, even when maybe, maybe nobody else does, and have fun, yeah? Like, absolutely, you've got to have fun, otherwise, why do it? And I think going again being nice, like, have integrity. This isn't a race. You know, if you race, you're gonna miss stuff, so don't do that and have fun. And I
Emily Lane 43:10
think that's all great advice. Yeah. I mean having fun. It's it is important, if you love your work and you live your work all the time, find the joy
Michael Drummond 43:19
totally
Bret Schnitker 43:19
that's better advice than run.
Emily Lane 43:23
Sometimes we share,
Michael Drummond 43:29
go on really slow walks drives my boyfriend mad, but I'm just like trying to embrace my inner Southern gentleman or something.
Emily Lane 43:39
Well, you're looking for those opportunities of inspiration. Yeah, that's right. Well, thank you for this amazing conversation. I know it's one that we could just continue on forever. Well, thankfully, you're just right downstairs. We'll keep the conversation
Bret Schnitker 43:55
There will be a new podcast, 6 hours long.
Michael Drummond 43:58
We will be in Chicago.
Emily Lane 43:59
We'll make sure to share some photos of this amazing piece we've been talking about, where we'll share information. How to get in touch with Michael if you want to see more, follow our socials, because that's where you're going to find that information. And do not forget to subscribe to stay apprised of upcoming episodes.
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